Talk:Waffen-SS
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[edit] Pictures of dead soldiers
How does it come, that in nearly every article on world war II, wehrmacht, ss and so on are pictures of dead soldiers. can't we get better picures suited for the topic? i mean i understand the desire to show that during war people die, or that war crimes occured, but this site at least wants to be an encyclopedia... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.155.145.106 (talk) 16:46, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Pictures
I deleted the photo of "The dancing Armenians". User Vonones placed it in the articles about the Wehrmacht and the Waffen-SS. It doesn't belong in any of these. An encyclopedic article should give an overview of a topic. Details like this picture one can and should find in specialized books on the topic. More important and informativ are photos of personalities and equipment (see the discussion about the dead soldier).
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Icon-waffen-ss-pic.jpeg
Image:Icon-waffen-ss-pic.jpeg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 05:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup
I have gone through the intro and origins trying to remove material that is about the SS, and very interesting, but irrelevant IMHO to evolution of the Waffen-SS. I have done this to shorten the pieces and to keep a tighter focus. Apols to the contributors of great material that i hope is on the SS page instead.
I have also tried to strictly enforce chronology and remove the comments about the future SS or past SS that occurred often in the text. I have tried to move the material if it wasn't duplicative.
I have tried to remove the duplicative material from these two sections.
Please forgive but this was getting rather long-winded and 'bitty' reflecting a the many informed people who have contributed in many places. Facius 12:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] War crimes
From Polish Wikipedia (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podgaje_%28wojew%C3%B3dztwo_wielkopolskie%29) :
"W trakcie walk o Wał Pomorski w 1945, w miejscowości Podgaje walczący po stronie niemieckiej żołnierze łotewscy z grupy bojowej "Elster", wchodzący w skład 15 Dywizji Grenadierów SS (1 łotewskiej) dokonali zbrodni na 32 żołnierzach Wojska Polskiego z 4. kompanii 3. pułku piechoty 1 Dywizji WP, którym najpierw skrępowano ręce drutem kolczastym, a następnie wprowadzono do stodoły i spalono żywcem."
During the fight for Pomeranian Wall in 1945, in the village called "Podgaje" (<-- Poland) the Latvian soldiers from the group called "Elster" (Kampfgruppe Elster) which was a part of 15th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Latvian), SS-mans of that division performed a war crime on polish prisoners, burning alive 32 soldiers of Polish Army from 4th company 3rd regiment infantry 1st Division 1AWP in a barn tied up with a barbed wire.
I'm sorry for the bad translation...but I think that you will understand it.
Proofs :
1,0 1,1 Majewski Ryszard: Waffen SS. Mity i rzeczywistość. Krajowa Agencja Wydawnicza, Wrocław, 1983, s. 247. ISBN 83-03-00102-7.
2,0 2,1 Zawilski Apoloniusz: Polskie fronty. Oficyna Wydawnicza Volumen, Warszawa, 1996, s. 463 (tom2). ISBN 83-86857-23-4.
Grzelak, Stańczyk, Zwoliński: Armia Berlinga i Żymierskiego, Warszawa, 2002, ISBN 83-88973-27-4
Polski czyn zbrojny w II wojnie światowej. Wydawnictwo Ministerstwa Obrony Narodowej, Warszawa, 1988, s.531 (tom 3). ISBN 83-11-07038-5.
--Greetings [[User:Krzyzowiec|Krzyzowiec]] (talk) 03:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] War crimes against the Waffen-SS
It appears fair to mention that members/POWs of Waffen-SS units were the frequent object of summary executions and other atrocities either by regular allied troups or so-called "résistance" members regardless of personal responsibility, especially on the Eastern front or in the Balkans. The article should be extended to account for this aspect. --Meudonnais (talk) 10:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
In doing so, attention should be paid to the issue that SS personnel, not being regular soldiers, were not obviously covered by the Geneva Convention on the law of war, as well as the recurrent use of ruses by SS troops who feigned surrender far more frequently than they actually captulated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.222.148 (talk) 01:01, 21 August 2008 (UTC) ]
Well, let's talk about them. On the Eastern Front the German army calculatedly starved, froze or shot 3 million Russian POWs on the first year of the war and liquidated Russian Jews in 2 years, used mass murder as a means to fight partisans and executed any communist party member civilian or military. The courtsey was returned with feeling. After Canadian POWs were murdered the 12 SS Div, the Canadians stopped taking SS prisoners. The US Army stopped taking SS prisoners in retaliation of the Malmedy massacre. And what is that with the peculiar use of the phrase "so-called resistence fighters"? Methinks I detected Neo-Nazism in the air. Chin Cheng-chuan
Actually, Meudonnais does have a point, just because war crimes were commited by the SS, does not mean we should attempt to minimalize or perhaps even not cover war crimes commited by allied soldiers. -Anonymous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.83.49.13 (talk) 06:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:4SSNL-PGDA1.jpg
Image:4SSNL-PGDA1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 04:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Inaccurate statement about Waffen SS participation in the Holocaust.
It should be noted that it is untrue to say that the Waffen SS did not participate in the Holocaust while the so-called "regular SS" did. Aftering being wounded, a great many Waffen SS men were assigned duty as concentration camp guards in the rear during their recuperation periods. They would then rotate back to their front-line unit after fully recuperating. For more on this, please see Charles Sydnor's "Soldiers of Destruction." 76.111.6.4 (talk) 03:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] regarding the caption of the recruitment poster
"Vollendetes 17tes Lebensjahr" means you are 17 years old, not 18. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.117.83.13 (talk) 22:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, this is true. This phrase means the day when someone turn 17. --78.51.106.248 (talk) 18:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Descriptors
The descriptor of "Third Reich" as a country has little validity. Units of the Waffen SS raised in conquered territories were raised, deployed, commanded and supplied by the structure of the German state. The postage stamps of that era indicate 'Deutsches Reich' and the railway 'Deutsche Reichsbahn'. The term 'Drittes Reich' is and was used as a political term to describe a period of a distinct form of German aspiration to
1. emulate a previous era of influence and control of disparate ethnic/language groups by a pre-eminent nation (that is the Holy Roman Empire) and
2. an era of aggressive 'unionising' of German speaking states by Prussia/Otto von Bismarck via wars with neighbour nations (Denmark, Austria and France).
The "Country" should, I feel, read 'Germany'. The inclusion of a "Garrison/HQ" is surely superfluous, as is "March", "Anniversaries","Colors", "Nickname" and "Motto". Himmler was its C-in-C. In Britain the Queen is a patron of many organisations including the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) but she doesn't run any of them. I detect an emotional, even glorifying overlay to this article rather than a rigorous objective summation. Gr1bble8s (talk) 20:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I think this article is terrible and written in incredible poor taste, but Third Reich is considered accurate historical vocabulary. As in:
First Reich-Holy Roman Empire
Second Reich-The German Empire/Imperial Hohenstauffen
Third Reich-Nazi Germany
I agree the "motto" and the "nickname" should be ommitted from the box. -Chengchuan Chin
I don't believe anyone referred to the Holy Roman Empire as the "First" Reich or Bismarckian Germany as the "Second" Reich until the Hitler era. Historian932 (talk) 21:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
[edit] SS' tatoos
The article must have a link for SS' tatoos.Article about SS' tatoos: [[1]] and [[2]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agre22 (talk • contribs) 03:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Problem with following statement
"For example, Dutchmen who joined the 34.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland were granted exemption from forced labour and provided with food, pay and accommodation. Recruits who joined for such reasons rarely proved good soldiers, and several units composed of such volunteers were involved in atrocities."
Is there any proof for that statement? Many warcrimes were committed by mostly German-Units, like Totenkopf. Who very often joined the SS because of its ideology and not "because of food, pay or accomodation". And they often proved excellent soldiers though they were indeed involved in many atrocities. Therefore I strongly doubt that this statement is true, that rather "unmotivated" soldiers committed more atrocities than ideologically motivated/convinced SS-soldiers.
87.176.204.247 (talk) 10:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC) German, Freiburg
[edit] this quotation sounds like a bit of a whitewash
Many Latvian "volunteers" were actually conscripted after February 1943, even though Nazi propaganda claimed that they had consented to join the Waffen-SS (Latvian Legion 15th and 19th Divisions). The Nazis called these Latvian conscripts volunteers in order to avoid the 1907 Hague Convention rules (which stated that citizens from occupied countries could not be conscripted by occupying forces). However, prior to February 10, 1943 some Latvians actually did join these divisions as volunteers but the vast majority did so not for Nazi ideals but because they wanted arms and financing to liberate their country from the Soviet occupation that began in 1940. Therefore, amongst themselves they referred to their divisions as the "Latvian Legion" (in a fight for national self-determination) rather than as Waffen-SS fighting for Hitler.
that needs so much citation its not even funny. 'the vast majority'? 'amongst themselves?' can we get some statistics on what proportion joined 'not for nazi ideals but to liberate their country from the USSR'? Obviously there must be a document showing entrance polling concerning motivation for latvian SS members, otherwise the author wouldn't have made such a baseless assertion... ... .. right? 76.16.46.233 (talk) 02:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Right reason for creation?
The article states that the SS was formed because of Hitler's "unease" with the "size and strength of the SA"...I thought it was because he wanted an absolutely dependable group of men based in each town/city in Germany that would protect him when he drove around giving speeches (this is before he had achieved any political power, and communists would attempt to break up nationalist meetings). Historian932 (talk) 21:07, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
[edit] POV in this article
IMHO this article along with a number of others to do with the SS/atrocities/holocaust should be locked down. It is such an emotive subject that people constantly edit it without paying enough attention to grammar, good English, the context of their contribution w.r.t. the rest of the article, and most of all POV issues. This is bad for the reputation of English Wikipedia and the quality of its articles. Surely there is a better way of dealing with articles containing contentious issues. I can imagine this would apply to Arab-Israeli issues even more.1812ahill (talk) 05:49, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
