Talk:Saint

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Talk:Saint/Archive 1

[edit] Saints and justification

The article should maybe explain the relationship between sainthood and justification. The traditional belief on the subject is that saints are the ones who have received a very favourable particular judgement upon their death, and who will remain in the presence of God until judgement day. People who are not saints will not remain in the presence of God and will wander the Earth until Christ decides that it is time for the world to come to an end. Hence, only the saints have really been justified ahead of their time. ADM (talk) 20:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The article cannot explain the relationship between sainthood and justification, simply because both concepts which fail the Wikipedia criteria for verifiability. Belief, faith etc are no substitute for verifiability. Cite the verifiable sources for justification, the existence of saints, God, favorable judgement etc. and then all of this can be included. Otherwise it is just speculation. Faith is fine at a personal level but not in an encyclopedia which hopes to be taken seriously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.54.27.49 (talk) 22:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not asking to literally verify if saints are actually justified before God in paradise, that would be practically impossible, I'm just requesting additional material from existing theological documentation, such as holy writ and sacred tradition. ADM (talk) 16:16, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Point of view

This article is written from a religious point of view, Since there is no evidence for the existence of God it should be written from an atheistic point of view 219.90.233.80 (talk) 13:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The article on capitalism should also be written from a Marxist point of view. Carlo (talk) 13:24, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The article is of course written, at least in part, from a religious point of view, considering the subject is a religious one, dealing with a specifically religious point of view, that being the naming of individuals as saints. It would be possibly be counterproductive to write it from an atheistic point of view, if a specific atheistic point of view could be decided upon, as doing so would very likely make it harder to understand the subject. However, if there are sufficient notable and verifiable sources regarding the subject of saints from an atheistic point of view, I can well imagine that material could be added regarding that. I would urge the IP editor in question to indicate what sources he would use for that purposes, if he wants such material to be included. John Carter (talk) 13:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

atheists dont necessarily believe there are no saints, just that there is no god. many atheists would say that holiness resides ENTIRELY in fellow man, not in some power above. so a section on atheism and sainthood would be a complex topic, not addressed in a single line. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:24, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Which might be why you can't do it. There is no single thing called "atheism" anymore than there is a single thing called "theism." It really isn't a category for this sort of article at all. If you wanted to discuss the subject as approached by non-theistic Buddhists or secular humanists (assuming they have such an approach), that might make some sense. But most atheists probably don't even belong to ANY definable group. And if belief (or non-belief) groups simply ignore the subject entirely - which I think is the case with MOST atheists - there is really simply nothing to say.

And in addition there is also the problem that atheists are not a religion at all. I don't know if they can be "not a religion" and still treated as a defined group when discussing religions. Carlo (talk) 22:55, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the guy was trying to make a point, and he made it poorly. His point is that the article is written from a religious point of view, and this is a bad thing because articles are meant to be factual only, and they are not meant to be written from the point of view of a belief system. His assertion that it should be written from "an atheistic point of view" is clearly invalid, as atheism is also a belief system.

However, we should not lose sight of the fact that his initial point is valid: the article should not be written from the point of view that the Christian god (or Hindu gods, in the Hindu section) exist.

Having said that, I personally don't think the article is too bad. And I'm an atheist, too. The only real flaw I could see was that there is an assumption at the top of the article that saints are Christian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.5.251.30 (talk) 22:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

"The only real flaw I could see was that there is an assumption at the top of the article that saints are Christian."

I don't see where that's assumed. Could you be specific?

"However, we should not lose sight of the fact that his initial point is valid: the article should not be written from the point of view that the Christian god (or Hindu gods, in the Hindu section) exist."

Well, it does just say "God" without qualification. But what else would you have? That everytime it says "God" it should say, "God (whose existence not everyone believes in)"? I mean, there is a wikilink. Carlo (talk) 23:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I have gone through one section flagging statements which require sources to verify them. The whole article needs this treatment. I see no valid reason for excluding religious articles from the standard Wikipedia requirement for verifiability. In this sense I disagree with the original request that the article should be written from an atheistic point of view. Wikipedia requires a Neutral Point of View, currently lacking here. Since one can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a god (or more than one), the article needs simply to be objective and cite sources to back up its claims. Just like any other article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.54.26.32 (talk) 08:22, 19 June 2009 (UTC)