Talk:Idiom

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Contents 1 Leave well enough alone 2 Computer Science Example 3 Two expressions 4 List 5 Questions 6 Removed 7 Removed 8 More removed text 9 "Kick the bucket" 10 What is not an idiom? 11 No article on set phrases 12 second meaning of "idiom" missing. 13 Contradiction? 14 Computer Science 15 "Kick the bucket" 16 Why is this link here? 17 Confusion with Proverbs - contradiction in article 18 Section merge 19 Meaning section added (explanation of idioms contained) 20 Link to French Article 21 Revert 22 On "Common Parlance" Re-direct 23 Idiom articles - Wikipedia or Wiktionary?

[edit] Leave well enough alone

I'm no linguist, so I didn't want to correct someone else's claim -- but what exactly is supposedly wrong with "leave well enough alone"?

Bob may not be perfectly well, but he is well enough, so let's leave him alone without trying to fix him. That seems completely fine to me, both semantically and grammatically.

And the supplied citation doesn't actually support the claim that "leave well enough alone" is somehow ungrammatical or semantically jarring. Can someone verify that there's nothing wrong with the customary idiomatic formulation? 75.3.94.131 22:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

"It is estimated that William Shakespeare coined over 9,000 idioms still in use today.[citation needed]" "Over 9,000"? Come on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.132.177 (talk) 04:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Computer Science Example

The example CS idiom: while(*a++ == *b++); -- originally written as an assignment (=) and now written as a comparison (==) -- doesn't make a lot of sense to me either way. The first way, while(*a++ = *b++);, will assign the contents of the array starting at b to the array starting at a, but there's no termination condition. The second way, while(*a++ == *b++);, you compare the current elements of a and b, then go to the next elements (the ++'s execute after the comparison), then repeat while the elements are the same. But, when you finally get to points in a and b where the elements are different, you'll stop on the NEXT elements, not the first ones that are different -- because the ++ happens regardless of the outcome of the comparison. Also, there's no termination condition if the arrays are the same; you'll spill over into the next chunk of memory. So, could someone either clarify this code for me (maybe I'm not reading it right or seeing its purpose) or come up with a better example? --sk19842 15:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, nevermind. It's for strings, in which case you'll encounter a '\0'. I'll change it back to an assignment and explain what it does. --sk19842 15:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Two expressions

Open question for discussion: Expressions: "Too many cooks spoil the broth." or "Too many Chiefs, not enough indians" Are these true idioms or mere colloquial metaphors? Both seem much more literal than most true idioms? Come to think of it, a metaphor is a comparison. Surley they're not ultra-short parables. Talk amongst yourselves. -A.Sprankell 6/22/05 20:07

[edit] List

Would it be proper to have a list of idioms? user:zanimum

No, because, that's part of the function of the wikipedia itself - see idiom dictionary

[edit] Questions

A small bundle of questions:

1. Do children, like foreigners, have trouble acquiring idioms?

This is dependant on countless variables.

The biggest variables I would say are:

whether or not the child is at least familiar with the words contained in the idiom itself

whether they are familiar with what the idiom is ultimately conveying in the first place.

We don't learn words by reading the dictionary,

we learn words by experiencing them in their surrounding context. Especially with idioms.

Children learn them from any number of variables that they currently do understand. For example, the emotional tone of the conversation, ::the broader conversation, for example.

In a nutshell; the more obvious the context surrounding the idiom(relative to the child's own perceptions and understandings), the easier ::they will infer and intuit how the idiom is to be used and what it implies.

1. Is "virtually all idioms are peculiar to their own language" perhaps a misleading claim? It seems that romance languages have a number of idioms that more or less directly correspond to an idiom in another romance language. Presumibly, as a rule of thumb, the more historically distant the languages, the more distant the idioms, and the fewer they'll have in common.

I'm not sure about that rule of thumb. It would seem to have more to do with cultural similarities than language relationships, e.g. "good Samaritan" probably has equivalents in many languages the Bible is widely read in. Another example might be the adoption of a colonial ruler's (or otherwise culturally dominant's) idiom, which is possibly (this is a total guess) why Tagalog has "buto't balat" (literally "skin and bones"). I'll try to think of better examples.

1. What American and British English Differences has to say about "could care less" and "couldn't care less" suggests that former expression derived from the latter. (The latter is present in Britain and America, while the former is present only in America.) Is this a compelling argument? Should we include it? It'd be nice to say something about how idioms arise, and "mutating" from a non-idiom seems to be one way this happens. (Of course, "could care less" might not be an idiom from certain perspectives.)

"Could care less" is non-standard English. But I'd also like to see a section on how idioms come into usage.

1. There are expressions such that A) if you don't know what they mean, the meaning doesn't seem to follow from the parts, but B) if you do know what they mean, the meaning more or less does. (Some people would say the meaning is "motivated", but not "determined", from the component meanings.) It's easy to come up with short examples (perhaps "house boat", "mechanical pencil", "abstract algebra", or "generative linguistics"). Maybe someone (perhaps me, at another time) can provide better or longer examples. In any case, are these phrases also called idioms?

Those don't seem like idioms to me. Periphescent 03:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

--Ryguasu 05:00 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

hi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.204.79 (talk) 03:14, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

Moved from article text to here:

There are thousands of idioms -- far too many to list here. It has been suggested that someone start a Wiki on this subject alone.

It seems more a discussion issue than an encyclopedic article on something in the real world. Not sure, though ... Atorpen 05:05 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

Already covered under idiom dictionary. Wikipedia is already serving as one of these, and the Wiktionary won't replace this function in its current form.

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A second meaning is in relation to one's language, and can be applied in specific graduations, for example, one's city, one's county, or one's country; a dialect may be referred to as an idiom.

Can someone clarify, perhaps by providing a definition of this sense? I really have no clue how to use the word "idiom" in this sense, and this definition doesn't help me. --Ryguasu

I'll do some more research and get back to you on this. What I meant was what you meant, I think, with: "idiom of the Americans," but that did sound weird. Think of it this way: in America, anyway, Minnesotans up north talk differently than Texans down south, and who 'talk different' than Californians out west. This is what I meant. Still, that's not at all what this article is about, at least at this point, and seems as if this definition would belong better in wiktionary. Maybe. Unsure.

In answer to 1) above, I seem to remember that children don't have trouble picking up idioms - its part of their learning the language. I think. :) Atorpen

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Don't remove 'redundant' See Also links. Most See Also links are 'redundant'. The purpose of the 'See Also' is to point out the most closely related or confused concepts. It is entirely correct to make distinctions in the text and include a link, and then include another link at the bottom to underscore the relatedness or confusedness. Most articles don't have enough See Also links.

While the in-context link is usually enough, for some articles, those most commonly confused or closely related or providing more information on the same topic, it's appropriate to actually suggest that they read those other articles. Some concepts are very central and so have up to ten 'See Alsos', most of which are referenced in the text too.

Agreed. The idiom dictionary link is a good one. Atorpen

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I think that they should be replaced with expressions that "actually make sense"

[edit] Removed

"Some people nonetheless lament the existence of idioms, and argue that they should be replaced with expressions that "actually make sense". Others don't care, while some deeply appreciate the existence of idioms." - see weasel terms, passive voice - yuck. -Slack 04:12, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] More removed text

In my recent edit I removed:

The term can be applied in specific graduations, for example, one's city, county, state, or country

because its original purpose in the article had become almost completely obscured (see April 2004 version), and:

Indeed, much of human language is idiomatic in structure: even the most formal of structures contain characteristics, such as general typology, which categorically distinguish it from other languages.

because it seemed to be using the word idiom[atic] in a sense not directly related to the rest of the article. - dcljr 03:44, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC) SHANITQUA MaYS & RAMIRE maYO

[edit] "Kick the bucket"

Take the English expression to kick the bucket. A listener knowing only the meaning of kick and bucket would be unable to deduce the expression's actual meaning, to die. Although kick the bucket can refer literally to the act of striking a bucket with a foot, native speakers rarely use it that way.

Does this belong in the intro? I think it would be more appropriatly placed under the "Culture" section. The intro should lean towards explaining the word, and less towards giving examples. --Stoa 17:45, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is not an idiom?

Over on Wiktionary right now I'm having trouble telling a contributor that "smells like shit" is not an idiom. His argument is that it doesn't imply an odour that necessarily closely matches that of excreta. My argument is that that is the nature of simile and that not every nonliteral phrase equates to an idiom? Am I wrong? If not, how can I better formulate my argument? — Hippietrail 00:22, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

According to this article "An idiom is an expression (i.e. term or phrase) whose meaning cannot be deduced from the literal definitions and the arrangement of its parts, but refers instead to a figurative meaning that is known only through conventional use".

Since "smells like shit" is quite directly deduced (Q:"what does shit smell like" A:"well, it's not good"), it is not a colloquial simile or idiom.

Also, features of idioms include Non-compositionality, Non-substitutability, and Non-modifiability. Since the meaning of "smells like shit" is straightfoward from its parts, since you can substitute related words ("smells like poop") or make modifications ("shit-like smell") without losing or changing meaning, the phrase is not an idiom. Hyacinth 02:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No article on set phrases

I was shocked to discover that we have no article on Set phrase. I was hoping to find a good explanation of the differences between an idiom and a set phrase, as well as whether set phrases always mean more than the sum of their parts, whether they are 100% set or tolerate some changes such as insertion of adjectives, replacement of components by synonyms, etc. — Hippietrail 19:29, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] second meaning of "idiom" missing.

This article is missing the second (and third) meaning of the word "idiom". It should be at least mentioned. Idiom does also mean: the characteristics that are specific for a language, or for a dialect. E.g. vocabulary and grammar forms that are specific for New Yorkers.

And, in arts, it stands for the characteristics of expression that are specific for a movement, an individual, a subgroup, ...

See Merriam-Webster definition

I won't add it myself, because my English is not proficient enough herefore. :)--Dr. Friendly 22:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction?

The "Non-modifiability" section first states the "The bucket was kicked" has nothing to do with dying, and then it says "John's bucket was kicked" is correct. Which is it? Capitan Obvio 10:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Computer Science

i think it would be very useful to have (perhaps in a serpate article) a list of common programming idioms in various languages. Perhaps after I've read over the article creation guidelines I'll add one--Michael Lynn 01:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Kick the bucket"

The source stated as an absolute truth is not so true as is said. The suicide-explanation seems indeed to be more of a folk etymology than reality. There are at least two other exlanations: 1) referring to the bucket (from Old French buquet) which was a wooden device on which pigs etc were slaughtered and while dying kicked it (hence: kick the bucket); 2) maybe a connection to Old Norse "bukr" as body. Generally, most etymologycal sources state that a definite, single-source origin is just not known. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.129.62.172 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Why is this link here?

there is a link to the "idiomatic translation service" http://www.idiomatic.net/ which does not seem to belong here. Maybe someone who has been watching this article can consider deleting it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.9.75.50 (talk) 18:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Confusion with Proverbs - contradiction in article

Under the "Common Features" sub-heading, the article warns against confusing idioms with proverbs, "which take the form of statements such as, 'He who hesitates is lost.'" However, the "Examples of idioms" section at the bottom of the page includes "Don't count your chickens before they hatch," which definitely strikes me as a proverb, not an idiom, since it is a statement of folk wisdom. As such, I think it should be removed from the list of examples. (I imagine these two contradictory bits likely came from two different contributors)

To answer A.Sprankell's inquiry, timestamped 6/22/05 20:07, I think the expression "Too many cooks spoil the broth" is similarly a proverb, not an idiom; though I'm less sure how to classify "Too many chiefs, not enough indians," since it more describes a condition than seeks to express a general (folk) "truth."

Lukescp 13:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that "Don't count your chickens before they hatch" is not an idiom. If you think it through, you can easily get the connections with real world applications. It does not seem one bit illogical to me.B3nnic33 10:06, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section merge

I merged the examples section with the section at the top, which already contained some examples. WeBuriedOurSecretsInTheGarden 20:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning section added (explanation of idioms contained)

Hi. I'm actually the guy that discovered the meaning of idioms and what I wrote was very succint. Just to be clear, what I wrote is not some bogus, hippie attempt at understanding idioms but is actually very straightforward and very repeatable. Give me any idiom you care to name and I can break it down into a clash between idea and meaning. I refrained from giving this language of contradiction its own name - "riddletalk" - for the sake of clarity.

If anyone wants to go ahead and verify what I have written holds true for other languages, I'm sure it would not only be really interesting but I and others would also really appreciate it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.175.202 (talk) 12:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

(Please try to add new material to a talk page at the bottom. It makes it easier to follow discussions.)

I find the paragraphs you have added giving your ideas on meaning very entertaining, but I do not think they are encyclopaedic. Original research is not allowed on Wikipedia. See WP:NOR. I am therefore deleting. In the event that your views were written up in peer-reviewed journals, then you could consider re-introducing them, with citations. Grafen 13:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Response: You have deleted the explanation of an idiom on a site dedicated to knowledge. Your remark that citations are necessary ignores the medium and demands research where none is needed. The observation needed to understand idioms is available at first-hand inspection and was explained clearly. All you need to do is look for the visual irony that contradicts the meaning of what is said, for example, "respect your elders" implies respect but there are equally many e's in "respect" as there are in "elders" whereas calling yourself an equal of an elder is not necessarily a sign of respect. All other English idioms follow the same pattern.

[edit] Link to French Article

In the 'read this in another language section,' this article links to the French article "idiotisme", which is basically when one makes a literal, rather than figurative, translation of an idiom into another language. The correct French term is "idiome," non?24.19.25.39 (talk) 07:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that is right. Idiome in French corresponds to the linguistics meaning of the English idiom, ie the language used by a particular group. And idiotisme means idiom in the sense of an untranslatable phrase. See their Wiktionnaire entries ([1], [2]), and it is confirmed by my hard copy Collins Robert dictionary. So we should leave the link to the French Wiki where it is.

This does raise the question of why the English Wikipedia's article on idiom deals only with the idiotisme meaning... Grafen (talk) 15:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, ok i suppose. It's strange that the French idiome article only has links to two other (Slavic?) languages, and that the English idiom article only address one sense of the word, as Grafen pointed out.--67.170.102.142 (talk) 02:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

I have reverted the article back to a previous and more comprehensive version due to the current version being horrifically short. It may have been shortened as a result of vandalism since the original edit came from an IP not a user.

FaustusTheAwesome (talk) 05:05, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] On "Common Parlance" Re-direct

I would like to change the re-direct that brought me here to indicate the following better definition: "Simply a fancy equivalent of Ordinary Speech", and then indicate that the reader may want to see Idiom, a subset of common parlance, and Jargon, a possible antonym. Does anyone want to add to the definition and redirect advice (There are other "possible antonyms". My original interest was in this particular distinction for the purpose of preventing a change in an article's title)?Julzes (talk) 01:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Idiom articles - Wikipedia or Wiktionary?

Do articles dedicated solely to the meaning of this or that idiom belong in Wikipedia or should they be proposed for deletion if met in Wikipedia? I mean the ones like Brass tacks and Gravy train. I've searched but found no policy of Wiki concerning this question. Best regards, --CopperKettle 07:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, we're not a dictionary, but if more information than a mere definition can be given and a couple sources cited, I see no reason to exclude them. Probably depends more on one's personal Inclusionist/Exclusionist views though. --Cybercobra (talk) 08:26, 30 June 2009 (UTC)